http://glennagirl.livejournal.com/ ([identity profile] glennagirl.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] section7mfu2019-07-16 10:24 am
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Speaking of Grammar...

[livejournal.com profile] mrua7 posted an interesting bit on the usage of the words further and farther.  I think it's easily one of the most misused words, further.  I cringe when people say that they went further than someone else, or they're going further.  Further isn't about distance, and if you're interested in some quick insights visit her page to read about it.

That leads me to the personal pronoun debacle.  I know it's been accepted as usage, but it is wrong to say 'Illya was with Napoleon and I on that trip'.  That is the same as saying Illya was with I.  Obviously incorrect, right?  So why do so many people insist on saying it improperly?

Television and movies don't help, the screenwriters are apparently ignorant of that element of grammar, the usage of this most obvious error is commonplace.  I have even heard Mr. McCallum make that mistake, and others of British origins as well.  It seems to not help that the speaker comes from the motherland of the language, just listen to it on almost any television production or interview.

Like so many things, fear seems to be the motivator.  People have become so accustomed to trying to avoid appearing ignorant, like people who might routinely say 'me and Jim Bob went shopping', that a paranoia of the use of the word me in a sentence has paralyzed the intellect.  Here's a quick summary.

Whereas the misuse of personal pronouns continues to vex the English language,  ain't became a type of socially accepted shortcut that has since become associated with lower socio-economic conditions. (Article is here.)  It seems slightly less egregious to me, however, than the commonly accepted phrase 'aren't I?'. Are not I? Is that something we would say? Am I not is the proper phrasing, but the laziness of speakers instead distills three words into a meaningless aren't I.  Same with the use of they when he or she would be correct.  People routinely refer to a singular he or she as the plural they.
Who has the winning ticket? They are lucky.

These are particular to my own sense of good writing habits, as well as speech.  I am not flawless concerning grammar, and thankful for every bit of help that my editing software gives me as I write.  But I do think we should make every effort to put it on paper correctly, not hedging on proper usage if we can avoid it.  I know I'm not alone, there are people in this community who are well versed in the language and the use of it.

We have a forum here, and the ability to sow into each other's lives and talents with our own observations and discoveries.  If you have a grammar issue you'd like to address, let's see it.  Post a new article or reply in the comments.

[identity profile] mrua7.livejournal.com 2019-07-16 03:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Found another good article:

They say English is one of the most difficult languages to learn.

While proper English does contain many subtleties and seemingly inexplicable rules, that shouldn’t give us a license to live in ignorance.

Is it becoming more acceptable to speak and write however we like? Have we desensitized ourselves to language misuse?

Even the most pedantic of people can fall prey to the following sins.

In which ways are you guilty of butchering the English language?

Confusing Commonly Used Words

Many words sound similar to one another, yet hold very different meanings. People spend years using the wrong words for their intended meaning, developing habits that are difficult to break.

Consider:

Accept/Except: When you accept a marriage proposal, everyone will be pleased except your future mother-in-law.
Effect/Affect: Smoking causes nasty effects. Inevitably, your breath will affect your love life.
Than/Then: When you discover your dog speaks better than you do, then you must spend more time studying.
Because confusion between these words is so common, people will generally be able to decipher what you’re trying to say. However, it’s always best to distinguish between similar words and learn to use them properly.

Inappropriate Use of Expressions

Expressions are used more frequently in speech than in writing, which might account for why they are so often misused.

Phrases passed along in the oral tradition are easily distorted:

“For all intensive purposes,” should be, “For all intents and purposes.”
“I could care less,” should be, “I couldn’t care less.”
“Nip it in the butt,” should be, “Nip it in the bud.”
If you are unsure of the correct wording used in common expressions, or if you don’t know what they mean, find out (or leave them out).

Overzealous Grammar

There’s nothing worse than someone who applies every grammatical rule in the book to every situation.

We do speak less formally than we write, so it’s okay to be somewhat flexible with oral grammar. Splitting infinitives and ending sentences with prepositions is fine in most speaking situations.

Free Grammar Checker! Correct All Grammar Errors And Plagiarism. Free And Instant Checks
Informal writing can experiment with certain grammatical rules. For example, there’s nothing wrong with occasionally starting a sentence with ‘And,’ ‘But,’ or ‘Or,’ if your purpose is to emphasize a point. Sometimes writers can even get away with using sentence fragments.

However, in a formal piece of writing, such as an essay, business letter or report, always use proper grammar.

Misuse of Thesaurus

Using a thesaurus to expand one’s vocabulary may sound like a great idea.

However, this can easily lead to situations where you think two words are synonymous, when in reality they would be inappropriate to use in the same context.

For example, check out reward in the thesaurus, and you might find retribution under the list of synonyms. While in some contexts the two words might hold similar meanings, in general they are not interchangeable.

Words can carry all sorts of different connotations. Simply picking one out of a thesaurus list is essentially drawing a word out of a hat.

Incorrect Pronunciation

How often have you heard the following?

“Supposably” for “Supposedly”
“Samwich” for “Sandwich”
“Aksed” for “Asked”
“Expecially” for “Especially”
“Mischievious” for “Mischievous”
These mispronunciations are sometimes the result of learning to say the words improperly as children. The habit carries on so the person rarely even recognizes their mistake.

The same can’t be said of others who are listening.

Unforgivable Spelling Errors

No one knows how to spell everything, but words we use commonly should be given special attention.

I’ve seen variations such as ‘Wensday,’ ‘beleive,’ ‘grammer,’ ‘defenitely’and ‘greatful’ more times than I can count. Though a person could be forgiven for misspelling words we rarely use, surely we can all benefit from learning how to spell everyday ones.

There are plenty of rhymes and mnemonic devices to help you remember the trickier rules. Think, “I before E, except after C,” or “Drop the E and add ING.”



Edited 2019-07-16 15:59 (UTC)

[identity profile] jkkitty.livejournal.com 2019-07-16 05:20 pm (UTC)(link)
true, I have a little book of words to double-check when writing. Usually Grammarly helps, and reading everything they suggest. My vain of writing----effect and affect. I know the difference but still need to double-check it all the time.

[identity profile] reapermum.livejournal.com 2019-07-16 05:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm actually willing to accept a singular They.

I and We still indicate number, and I think that is all.

Thou and You also indicated number, but also social status. If someone was your social superior you addressed them as You, but an inferior was addressed as Thou. Thou mostly dropped out of use when the concept of the equality of man became common and it was no longer acceptable to keep men down.

He, She and They are in a similar position now to where Thou and You were 400 years ago. Just as the equality of man changed pronoun usage back then, so the equality of women with men is beginning to have the same effects now.

[identity profile] leethet.livejournal.com 2019-07-16 07:07 pm (UTC)(link)
People vaguely remember hearing "I, not me" from their early schooling, and that they were constantly being corrected. What they don't remember is that they were being corrected for "Me and Joe found a stray dog" not for "This stray dog followed Joe and me home."

That's my theory, anyway.

[identity profile] leethet.livejournal.com 2019-07-16 07:10 pm (UTC)(link)
No one knows how to spell everything

I do. :-) At least that's what I told my boss (I work in aerospace) when he asked me as a favor to fix up a chart he was creating for some project for his kid. It listed 80s bands and I fixed up the document format, gave it back, and said, "Do you want me to correct the misspelling of Dexys Midnight Runners on here? Yes, I do indeed know how to spell EVERYTHING."

[identity profile] leethet.livejournal.com 2019-07-16 07:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, never open THIS door for me.

I'll pick the peeve I've seen most often recently: In regards to.

In the first place you sound pretentious, usually. Just friggin' say "about." "I wanted to talk to you ABOUT that report you sent me for review." See how easy that is?

And, of course, it's wrong. It's in regard to. Or "with regard to" or "regarding," if you prefer. Regards are good wishes you give someone upon greeting them or saying good-bye to them.


Oh, wait - I have another one! "Tad bit."

Stop it. It's redundant. "I was a tad hungry" or "I was a bit late" - the words mean the same damn' thing.

I'll stop now. I could easily go on.

[identity profile] leethet.livejournal.com 2019-07-16 07:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Accept/Except:
Effect/Affect:
Than/Then:


Anyone who gets these wrong needs to surrender "their" pedant's badge. :-)

[identity profile] leethet.livejournal.com 2019-07-16 07:21 pm (UTC)(link)
but an inferior was addressed as Thou.

Well, an inferior or an intimate.

[identity profile] ssclassof56.livejournal.com 2019-07-16 09:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I was once an English teacher and have always been a grammar nerd. I loved diagramming sentences. :)

Dreyer’s English was a great read, and I highly recommend it.

One of my pet peeves is incorrectly placed semicolons. They only have a few specifics uses, and I rarely see them used correctly. :p

[identity profile] hypatia-66.livejournal.com 2019-07-16 09:58 pm (UTC)(link)
If it's any consolation to those of us who learned (and retained) some elements of good English, the me/I infelicity is not confined to our own time. My great-grandmother was guilty of it in a diary, which I inherited, written between 1869 and 1873. She came from a fairly wealthy family, so must have been fairly well educated, too. Just not quite well enough.

[identity profile] mrua7.livejournal.com 2019-07-17 06:56 am (UTC)(link)
Good on you girl!! Spell on!

[identity profile] threecee.livejournal.com 2019-07-17 05:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for airing some of my pet peeves!

According to my historical linguistics professor in college, the insistence on always using the subjective form: "Illya and I " rather than the grammatically identical "I and Illya" creates some of the confusion when the objective case is used.

He said it came from lower middle class Victorian schoolteachers trying to instill both grammar and morality in their working-class students. "Always put others first". A similar moral grammatical lesson is "never be willful". "Illya will go to the dance" but "I shall go to the dance". I remember one grade school trying to teach us that distinction, but I think shall has dropped out of American usage.

[identity profile] alynwa.livejournal.com 2019-07-18 03:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah, Glenna, you and I share the same pet peeve. I hate when people say "I" when it should be "me." I am not grammatically perfect, but I'm grammatically great and figuring out whether the pronoun is being used correctly is so easy. "You and I" equals "we" and "You and me" equals "us."


"It's me" in answer to "Who is it?" is colloquially accepted as correct as the truly correct "It is I" now sounds overly formal and pretentious as does the equally correct "She is taller than I (am understood)" as opposed to "She's taller than me." Interestingly, the answer "This is she" in answer to "May I speak with Susan?" is not perceived as sounding snooty.

[identity profile] leethet.livejournal.com 2019-07-19 03:11 am (UTC)(link)
Curious - I rarely see them used at all. I like them; they are the perfect connector for complete but related sentences.

[identity profile] leethet.livejournal.com 2019-07-19 03:12 am (UTC)(link)
He said it came from lower middle class Victorian schoolteachers trying to instill both grammar and morality in their working-class students.

Oh, FFS. As if English isn't complicated enough already.

[identity profile] leethet.livejournal.com 2019-07-19 03:16 am (UTC)(link)
I remember how excited I was when I learned that yes and no are for questions framed negatively ("Was that not a lovely dinner?") and yea and nay are for questions framed positively ("Did you enjoy the dinner?")

I have no idea whether that's true anymore; I just love the specificity of it. That ability to account for just about any contingency is one of the reasons I love English.

[identity profile] alynwa.livejournal.com 2019-07-19 11:44 am (UTC)(link)
I used to love diagramming sentences; it allows one to see how nouns, verbs, adverbs, etc. work to put a sentence together and in my mind, it makes learning grammar easier because you see it and how it fits. Sadly, it hasn't been taught in years.

[identity profile] alynwa.livejournal.com 2019-07-19 11:50 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, I just saw your reply! If you look below, I just wrote that I loved diagramming sentences, too! I am also a fan of the semi-colon and I do tend to use it quite a bit.

Please feel free to pull out the red pencil if you see me use one incorrectly! I would appreciate it.

[identity profile] alynwa.livejournal.com 2019-07-19 12:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Just thought of another peeve of mine: People don't seem to understand the Conditional Tense.

Incorrect:
If I was to come to your party, would you serve vegan food?

Correct:
If I WERE to come to your party, would you serve vegan food?

The Conditional Tense is discussing a hypothetical. It is now a very common error and annoys me to no end.

[identity profile] ssclassof56.livejournal.com 2019-07-19 01:19 pm (UTC)(link)
Hah. I love the meme “I’m silently correcting your grammar.” That’s so me. I once got a comment on a story saluting my “grammatical competence,” which made my day. (They liked the story too.) :D

[identity profile] ssclassof56.livejournal.com 2019-07-19 01:25 pm (UTC)(link)
I always have to look that up, as I forget the specifics, particularly when it gets into things that could happen vs things that could never happen.

One of my favorite parts of The Restaurant at the End of the Universe is Dr. Dan Streetmentioner’s Time Traveler’s Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations. :)