Round Table - The Friendship

[glenmered]

 

Last week we had a rousing conversation concerning Illya and his women, and his attitude towards them.  Out of that came a comment from vmccooley that had a promise of more comments as we explore what each of us perceives as the depth of the relationship between Solo and Kuryakin.
For the sake of a free exchange, I think we must make this forum truly open; that is to say, whatever your viewpoint on this it is welcome as part of the conversation.  I realize the fans of MFU range from those who hold to the series' presentation of the men as purely professional tinged with a solid friendship, while others have taken it to a romantic relationship.  This is the day to tell us how you got there and why it holds your imagination and attention as a writer and/or reader.
So, what do you think? Just what are the depths of devotion between Napoleon and Illya?

Comments

[alynwa]

In my head, Napoleon and Illya over the course of their partnership have become very devoted to each other because Napoleon insisted from the beginning that he and Illya keep no secrets from each other, about anything; that they share what they are feeling and to trust that the other one is a non - judgmental safe place to reveal deepest darkest secrets. I write gen mostly with the occasional slashy tale mixed in, but I can certainly appreciate the stories that portray them as devoted lovers. If anyone is familiar with the TV show Boston Legal, the friendship of Alan Shore and Denny Crane is similar to how I see Napoleon and Illya: Extremely close to the exclusion of others, much closer than typical male friends seem to be, not afraid to hug and say I love you.

[jantojones]

Personally, I prefer to see them as extremely close friends, who love each other like brothers, but I don't take any issue with anyone seeing them as lovers. I tend not read slash simply because I don't see them as lovers, (anyone who has read any of my Torchwood stuff will know I have no problems with same sex relationships). However, I can understand, and appreciate, how others see their relationship as more than just friends. There are plenty of looks and touches which can easily be read in different ways.

[lilidelafield]

I don't read or write slash myself, and I never will. I have no issue with those who feel differently. I view them as close friends, the type of friendship forged in the flames of trials and torture, who have learned to trust each other implicitly. I also like to think that they are not blind or immune to each other's bad points either, and sometimes become very annoyed at each other...for example, my Napoleon gets frequently annoyed with Illya's tendency to isolate himself, Illya with Napoleon's dalliances with women. I personally see them as good friends, but who don't spend every second together away from work.

[laurose8]

Just to say my take for canon (nothing against the slash fanon) is much at the first end of your spectrum. With the addendum that an early critic called it a brotherly relationship, and there is an element of you can choose your friends but with Waverly you can't as much choose your partner.

[leethet]

I write slash and gen, and have no issues switching between. The key for me has always been their trust in one another. I would agree with Lila, above, that I'm sure they irk each other, get on each other's nerves, and have separate interests - that may just be because I think that bit of separation is healthy in general and I view their relationship as healthy. But I think of them as brothers, with a bond forged in (or under?) fire, whether there's a sexual element to the story or not.

[glenmered]

I've always seen them from the perspective I held as a 10 year old, that of best buddies who work together in a tough job. Now as a writer I tend to see the depth of that friendship, the devotion required of two men whose lives often hang in the balance. I've used the biblical analogy of David and Jonathan, about whom it is written that their souls were 'knit together'. I have friends with whom I share that kind of closeness, and it is deep and effortless; some friendships spring up not because they are cultivated, but because they are meant to be. At least I believe that.
Personally, I see the two of them chasing women with great glee far too often to think of them as anything but heterosexual. I wrote a few slash stories after a great deal of encouragement to do so. It never seemed authentic to me, and I've removed all of them for that reason.

[msk1024]

Like Glenmered, I view Illya and Napoleon through the lens of my childhood self watching the show when it was first run. I don't easily buy in to a sexual relationship between IK and NS, but good writing persuades me. And a lot of stories make a really good case--Illya having an extremely guarded personal life, and Napoleon having what seems to be a casual, recreational approach to women.

I think we give the show and the relationship a lot more thought than the producers and writers did! Shows from that period were fairly lightweight emotionally. MFU does seem to have robust emotional underpinning, but I suspect that's due to two exceptionally fine actors.

My first online fandom was X-Files, and my take on Mulder and Scully was that they loved each other and were interested romantically in each other, but driving a lot of that was the fact that they were so unbelievably isolated from anyone else. Danger kept them from connecting with their families and friends, and made romance with anyone else far too risky. That would lend itself very easily to the MFU world. IK and NS are also isolated from anyone out of the organization. Humans have the need for intimacy--a hunger, really. Whether that relationship is sexual or strictly platonic, they would be drawn to each other out of a need.

[glenmered]

just imagine what the series would be like if it were done today. We'd have those layers of relationship, a continuing story line most likely, and so much more. I love the show as it is for what it is, but fan fiction has definitely improved on certain elements of what the writers couldn't delve into.

On the other hand

[msk1024]

On the other hand, from what I've seen in fandoms where the show is still ongoing, there is often a lot of heated discussion when the show doesn't go in the direction some fans want. We're blessedly free from that in MFU fandom, at least for the show. It's done and 50 years old, so we work with (and love and worship) what we have. I remember as a kid having very little say in anything--not at school and not at home. That's the way it was. I think we have a much calmer and more realistic attitude to the show. We don't expect to have any say in the direction of the show. (heck, most of the powers that were are no longer alive).

Re: On the other hand

[glenmered]

Very true, it's all just gravy for us at this point ;)

[glenmered]

11 comments from the Live Journal post...

fiorenza_a
May 28 2017, 08:35:45

I haven't sorted out DW yet.

But this is a brilliant discussion topic - hope you guys enjoy.
REPLY

glennagirl
May 28 2017, 16:07:43
I think if you follow the link you'll be fine to join in.
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alynwa
May 28 2017, 09:12:03
I just posted in DW. Will it automatically crosspost here?
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glennagirl
May 28 2017, 16:08:02
No, crossposting only applies to personal journals.
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vmccooley
May 28 2017, 09:59:57 Edited: May 28 2017, 16:06:24
Though I tend to see them through slash goggles, as I said in the previous post it's not necessarily in a sexual way. In the nature of spy shows - and "buddy" shows in general - women come and go, but the partnership remains the bedrock.

I know a lot of fans don't consider the return movie as "canon" - I'm 50/50 about it myself - but one thing about it felt true to me: neither man had married or maintained a lasting relationship. Despite the ridiculous reunion movie trope about "breaking partners up so we can have a dramatic reunion," they fell back into rhythm with ease.

"I will if you will" is a great line to me. They don't even need to say the words; they know each other so well. In the end, they decide to remain together. Whether friends or lovers, it is still their bedrock.

I'm not on Dreamwidth and they wouldn't let me post this anonymously, so I posted it here.
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glennagirl
May 28 2017, 16:13:19

I hope you'll consider DW, just for the sake of the 'what if' nature of LJ. I felt like this conversation might get too much attention since it is inclusive of the slash genre. As it is I was informed we have one of the top 25 entries today.
I think the buddy/partner scenario is the bedrock of so much great literature. Alexander Dumas made it classic with The Three Muskateers, perhaps the greatest buddy adventure of all time.
I personally accept the Return Movie, if for no other reason that the actors involved did it. I think Illya as the designer was the right way to go, and certainly he played that part on more than one occasion in the original series. Illya was the creative, the musician, the man most likely to go against the grain when he decided UNCLE wasn't going to rule his life. But that's for the stories, and I agree with you that in the second half of their lives they are much the same as in the first half. Single, still game for the adventure as long as it includes the other guy.
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vmccooley
May 28 2017, 16:40:20
Thanks, I'll look into it.

I've watched a number of reunion movies - I Spy Returns, Wild Wild West Revisited - and like MFU, there are pros and cons. Despite the flaws, I'm glad we have it.

I think the main thing is that they love each other, however one sees the nature of it.
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fiorenza_a
May 28 2017, 18:50:27 Edited: May 28 2017, 18:52:58

Slash isn't verboten - but there is an indication in the T&C's that it should be 'adult'. The approach seems to come from the same mindset that passed the reviled and heinous 'clause 28' into UK law. I.E. that 'gayness' corrupts the youth - like it was catching (and by implication, presumably a disease).

Since I can't do much about this mindset, I have decided to mark anything that might elicit any suggestion of romance, whether gay or otherwise, as adult. The Russians upped the rating on the live action Beauty and the Beast because of its gay content - but they did release the film.

So my thinking is, if Illya and Napoleon holding hands is adult, then so is Illya and Gaby (or, for that matter, Belle and the Beast) holding hands.

I couldn't do much about 'clause 28', but I boycott Russian vodka.
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fiorenza_a
May 28 2017, 19:20:53

I tried to reply to this earlier, but Lj ate my post!

Anyhow, the gist of what I tried to say was that I consider all non-canon slash as AU. I don't have much of a problem with either the 'Reunion' or 2015 movie, but I thought the 80's version of U.N.C.L.E. H.Q looked 'naff' - there really is no translation which really captures it's meaning, but in this context, 'cheap/low-rent' goes some way towards it - but Napoleon as art thief really irked me.

I know they usually use 'art' or 'jewel thief' to make someone sound dangerous without being sleazy, as drugs might do, but in this instance, art is sleazy. Worse than sleazy - after the war, a lot of private collections held Nazi looted art. It wasn't a clean market, it was tainted by the worst atrocities humankind has perpetrated.

So, even if you accept Napoleon as dishonest (and I don't), how can you accept him as decent? In my head canon, the only solution is to believe that he was actually working for an anonymous organisation to liberate and return the looted art - and that, at some point, he will be vindicated.

As for the actual question :0) I see the guys as friends in the show, brothers in arms who care deeply for each other - best mates who can tease and best each other without acrimony because they trust each other implicitly and love each other unconditionally. We don't know why Napoleon left U.N.C.L.E. - perhaps simply that he hit forty and couldn't bear to watch Illya still in the field without him. (I know Spikes came up with an imaginative take on the reasons for her Foothills series.) But it's clear at the beginning of the movie that he thinks he's left Illya cocooned in the protection of U.N.CL.E.

But I'm happy to read them as slash (to be fair, I've written them as slash, so it would be a bit rich to object!).

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glennagirl
May 29 2017, 07:28:52
I didn't like the back story on Napoleon for the big movie. It seemed unnecessary to cast him with that kind of 'edginess', which is a sad testament to how heroes are built these days. I guess being a Korean war vet wasn't good enough for the director.
As for Illya having anger management issues, that was a bad call IMO. I like the movie okay, all things considered, but those elements were way off for me.
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[leethet]

Anyhow, the gist of what I tried to say was that I consider all non-canon slash as AU.

See, I always assumed this, since back in the stone age the entire point of "slash" was that you were taking characters who were heterosexual in canon and making them gay/lesbian. That was what the term meant. AU by definition.

But I'm also a slash writer who doesn't see much in the way of slashiness in canon. I see affection and a bond and I extrapolate on it. There are those who see slash in the show.

Mileage varies.

[glenmered]

I get that some people see what they see, and maybe it does have enough wiggle room with these guys. Again, perspective is everything.
I've just never understood the POV, which made writing it very fake for me.