Can I Sound Off A Little?

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

This is a topic that has come up on occasion, a discussion that touches everyone who writes and/or reads the stories that are posted here and elsewhere across Live Journal.  Well, everywhere actually.
First, let me ask a question of you:
If you attend a concert or a stage production, do you applaud the performance? Do you acknowledge in any way that you were in the audience?
You get where I'm heading, I'm sure.
People write stories for others to read. We aren't doing it for money, and not for any type of hyped up response.  But, I do believe that most of us who are here, sharing a bit of ourselves through the stories we write, truly appreciate some sort of acknowledgement for the effort.
I know there are those who only comment on what they deem exceptional, or even extraordinary. It seems that mindset applies mainly to writers, often the harshest critics.  Sometimes it isn't important to be a critic. Sometimes you need to be an encourager, or a mentor, especially in this non-professional setting.
Now, I'm not suggesting that every person must leave a comment, but there is the little heart icon that indicates appreciation.  Does it mean you LOVE it or think it's the best thing you've ever read? No, it's a KUDOS, a thank you for the effort... an acknowledgement that the person who wrote it is deserving of something kind, something considerate for providing entertainment... freely offered entertainment.
We have a respectable number of people who come and go here on Section VII, and while it takes time to respond with a comment, ticking that little heart icon is a nano second of your time.  I realize some people are a bit shy when it comes to commenting, which makes the ablity to simply click on that heart a perfect way to say 'thank you'.
And I'm talking to everyone, all of the writers and  myself included.  Perhaps it's a little like the trophies that are awarded to every child on the team, whether they've won or not.  It's an A for effort sort of thing, a nod to the creative process that brings us all here.
Trust me, I am so appreciative of the continuing support of this community.  We were, quite literally, the little engine that could back in the beginning.  I think there were numerous people who gave Section VII little chance of being around and being active for longer than a minute or two.  We're here because of all of you who stop in, read and encourage the writers to keep doing what we do.
What I'm saying here is that you can remind us even more emphatically that you're with us, that you like having new fiction to read on an almost daily basis.  Don't think of the heart as a big I Love This pronouncement.  Think of it as a simple 'Thanks for posting'. There are so many great people in the MFU fandom, I have no doubt the sentiment is present.  Just know that when you take the effort to let the writers know you were here, it is a bit of validation that most will appreciate.
We love knowing that what we write and post here gives you a reason to love Napoleon and Illya even more.  I hope that, once in a while, you'll let us know we succeeded.
A Big Thank You for being here, for reading and for keeping the faith ... MFU style.

Comments

WARNING: Ensuing opinion guaranteed to offend

[leethet.livejournal.com]

People write stories for others to read.


Your premise is false. That is, not necessarily true. I write (or wrote, back when I could) for my own happiness. I shared my stories in the hope (not expectation) that someone else might enjoy them as I have enjoyed others' stories. Certainly not in the hope that they'll give me strokes, and certainly not with the expectation of strokes. That wasn't why I wrote them. My satisfaction and happiness was in the writing of them.*

No one asked me to share. I volunteered my stories. People who volunteer stuff have no business demanding payback from the people they've thrust their stuff upon. There is no spoken or unspoken contractual demand that if you read something that someone else volunteered to post, you're a bad person for not writing a letter of thanks and praise. I find that arrogant. Who asked me to put the story out there? Not the reader. I did it all on my own. Where would I get off demanding to be paid for something people never asked for in the first place?

I understand that that is not why everyone writes. Maybe I'm in a tiny minority when I say I don't expect other people to pay me for things they never asked for in the first place. But even if that minority is just me, it exists.

* As I always have to add - this doesn't mean I'm not pleased as punch when someone tells me they liked what I wrote. I am. The point is, I don't INSIST they say it. I wouldn't dream of making such a demand of other people, or of judging them for their silence.

RE: WARNING: Ensuing opinion guaranteed to offend

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

And I’m not insisting. What I am suggesting, and that is the gist here, is that the encouragement from feedback is a welcome aspect of what goes on here.
I do think that the concept of ‘thrusting’ our stories upon unsuspecting innocents is not why we write. It’s part of being in a community of folks who come for the purpose of reading what is presented. It is a matter of intention to be here at all, both for those who write and those who read.
New writers need encouragement, the veterans appreciate it.
I find it interesting that people vehemently deny the value of it, or refuse to offer any.
There’s no offense taken, those who will respond will do so because they want to. Everyone else is excused from engaging in the process. This was simply a reminder that it’s a positive option.
By the way, you’re still invited to join the second round of the Spring Round Robin 😎

RE: WARNING: Ensuing opinion guaranteed to offend

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I really wanted to - the prompt was AWESOME. But I just didn't have time. I haven't even had a chance to read it yet.

RE: WARNING: Ensuing opinion guaranteed to offend

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I don't at all deny the value of community or encouragement. That writers value it and find it useful is a completely different issue. Of course it's nice and it's useful. Of course.

My issue is that when people give other people crap for not responding, for not praising, for not commenting, for not "encouraging," -- for not participating in the community in a certain way someone has deemed "correct" -- you basically just discouraged them from further involvement. No one likes (or deserves!) to be taken to task for not conforming to the expectation of praise from writers/artists/vidders in fandom.

[threecee.livejournal.com]

I like the heart button because, as you say, it acknowledges reading the story without having to write a meaningful comment that other commentators haven't already left. However, with so many people linking to AO3, I will usually leave comments or kudos there instead. If other people are doing the same, that may be why you are seeing fewer responses here.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

You’re correct in pointing out the posting on AO3. I will freely admit that I miss having stories posted in their entirety here on the comm. There is a generosity of spirit in sharing one’s response to any story, wherever it’s posted. Many thanks.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I will freely admit that I miss having stories posted in their entirety here on the comm

I agree. I find it both convenient and a reinforcement of our community when stories are posted here (at least first - I believe in archiving).

[threecee.livejournal.com]

I like AO3 now that I have started using it myself, but I agree that it was easier having everything here instead of scattered between here, DW, AO3, FFNet, Chrome & Gunmetal, MFU Archive, etc.

[hypatia-66.livejournal.com]

I get what you're saying, but I also agree with leethet because one of the dangers I quickly became aware of as a writer was of deliberately trying to write the kind of thing that gets hits and kudos. It's very nice indeed if someone enjoys your story and says so, but it's quite important to stay true to yourself and not feel rejected if no-one says anything.

However, this post is also a reminder that if readers do enjoy what someone has written, it's definitely worth telling them so. I'm always delighted if a reader takes the trouble to say something about my stories - even if it's critical.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

I don’t consider trying to please anyone, the story is what it is based on, especially with our format, the prompt.
I just happen to believe that a nod or a word of thanks and/or encouragement is always welcome. A scathing remark that points out all of our flaws can go into a private message. Or one can resist the urge altogether.
We’re amateurs, it’s all in the spirit of community.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

A scathing remark that points out all of our flaws can go into a private message. Or one can resist the urge altogether.

Ouch. See, I have to demur again. A remark that points out flaws in a story is criticism. It is not innately scathing or mean-spirited. Many of us love both discussing and trying to improve our craft, and having someone go "The POV is totally confusing here" or "I don't understand why Napoleon did X when Y is so much more ... Napoleon!" is helpful and interesting feedback.

Again, I understand a lot of writers of fanfic - a LOT of them - only want to hear praise. But some of us are open to criticism, and I was sorry to see that get stomped to death (not just in this fandom!) by the people who only wanted to hear praise and attacked anyone who said anything except "GREAT STORY!"

I'll never understand the position of putting a work of art out there and then being angry when someone doesn't like it (or doesn't like part of it, or finds part of it flawed). That's the nature of putting art out into the world.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

but it's quite important to stay true to yourself and not feel rejected if no-one says anything.

This, exactly. Now, I know that some people write fanfic specifically as an effort to connect with the fannish community, hence they really want the comments/responses. I know because they've said so.

But there are others of us who write to write, and who appreciate the comments and don't worry about, or accuse, the silent majority - and they're out there. Boy are they out there. I used to write in a HUGE fandom and often got a comment in my LJ about a separate issue from someone I'd never heard from before, and then they'd add "I'm a huge fan of your stories, by the way. Sorry I never said anything before."

The silent readers are like dark matter. :-) But they have no need to apologize to me for being silent. I respect that.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

There are many people who visit anonymously, read and move on. The stats are reflecting that in larger numbers than those who openly participate.
I'm not always ready to respond to an entry, although I sometimes feel a little guilty if I don't. It's absolutely a personal stance on the subject, and once again I'll say that there's not a rebuttal of anyone's actions in the post I submitted.
Perhaps some of us are simply enjoying a little Mutual Admiration Society type of relationship. We buoy each other up and maintain a happy environment. I happen to like happy.
In any event, I can't deny that posting a story can be a daunting experience for some, and the hope of a positive response reinforces whatever grain of confidence prompted the public exposure, and encourages any future endeavors.
Not everyone functions like that. Personally, if I didn't think someone would read and enjoy what I write, I wouldn't be posting it in public. But, I'm not interested in a grudging response; I don't think anyone is.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

one of the dangers I quickly became aware of as a writer was of deliberately trying to write the kind of thing that gets hits and kudos.

You remind me of a time in the huge fandom when people were crying about how the BNFs got all the likes/comments/praise and it was unfair and there was some kind of conspiracy to close out the new writers and whine whine whine ...

My response was basically:

There is no conspiracy, you dolt. People read what they like. Either write what people like, or write what you want and take what comes. And the BNFs? They've earned their position through producing work people like. If people don't like what you write, it isn't because you're not internet-famous yet. You have the same access as the BNFs - that's the great thing about LJ/archives.

And the perennial: write better. Not that good writing necessarily gets more praise than poor writing. People like what hits their buttons.

[hypatia-66.livejournal.com]

Yes indeed. Good writing stands out even if the meretricious gets more hits. It's not a great aim in life to look for easy targets.

[hypatia-66.livejournal.com]

This is an interesting discussion. Clearly there are two arguments on which no agreement, as such, can be reached because they are different.
When I look back on the first time I posted a story, I had no particular expectation of receiving a response. My reasons for writing weren't to gain applause but to try to get it right, so, when applause came, it was not only encouraging but also gratifying and a surprise.

However, kudos and praise do tend to go to one's head - and recognising that has also provided an insight into the dangers of social media to all of us, not just the young. The danger lies in unwittingly defining ourselves through other people's opinions - opinions which when they are negative (or don't come at all) can be commensurately destructive. There's nothing wrong with mutual admiration as long as people recognise and obey the rules - and the attraction of these forums (esp. LJ and AO3) is the consideration writers and readers accord each other. I, for one, am grateful for that.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

My first story was a lark, a response to having read voraciously everything I saw that was in the MFU fan fiction sites. I love that people saw themselves in what I wrote, without it being a Mary Sue sort of thing.
You're right though, two or three (maybe more), points of view on the one topic. It's why we're here, to explore and discuss what makes it all work for us. One way or another we write it and hope it's good enough for someone to be glad he or she read it.
I happen to like community interaction, and perhaps I see the response we sometimes get as a part of that interaction. Not everyone needs to receive it, nor does everyone feel a need to engage in that manner.
As long as we keep writing the stories about the two best spies in the business, I'm very happy.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. I found it more common in the other fandom, which has a lot of young people, that a certain percentage of writers (overwhelmingly young, but NOT solely) basically wanted their dicks sucked. When readers didn't do that, they came out with all these complaints, but of course they didn't come out and admit "I want my dick sucked!" They used morally freighted terms like "courtesy" and "community" and "politeness" and "gratitude. In other words, if you didn't praise them - if you were silent or, heavens forfend, had criticism - you were discourteous, non-community oriented, impolite, and ungrateful.
Anything other than admitting that what they in fact wanted was to be praised. They didn't want community, they didn't want discourse, they didn't want honest discussion of the craft. They wanted their dicks sucked.

I can't stand that kind of selfish disingenuousness. I pissed off a lot of people in my corner of that fandom by basically calling them out on it. They really didn't like it that someone saw through their self-centered BS.

Readers don't owe writers anything, and they are not bad people just because they're not showering you (general you) with praise every time you post a story.


Again, none of this is to say there's anything wrong with liking a story and saying so; there's nothing wrong with liking it when people like your stuff. It's the people who demand it, who expect it, who insult the readers who don't give it by calling them rude or discourteous, who are, in my view, in the wrong.

[livejournal.livejournal.com]

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[alynwa.livejournal.com]

It seems leethet and I agree on a couple of points. To quote myself from my bio on ff.net, "Every story I've published, I like. I write what I want to read about characters doing what I want them to do. It continues to amaze me that OTHER people enjoy them. One of my favorite things to do every month is check my Story Stats to see how many readers in different countries have checked out my work."

Sometimes, people make comments, but most don't. I love comments and respond by thanking whoever made them, but if they don't leave one, that's okay, too. I don't mind constructive criticism; however, what I DO mind are people who turn off my ability to respond when they say something disparaging. That ticks me off to no end, not that it happens often. It's fine if you don't like something I wrote, but be constructive and allow me to discuss it with you if I want.

The other thing that annoys me, and this hasn't happened in the fandom since a couple of folks seem to have left, is being told that my view of the MFU world in incorrect. We each have our own take on the characters and their lives. Your vision may not be mine, but we're both correct in the way we see that universe. I don't remember who, but someone writes Aunt Amy as a vibrant young woman with whom Illya has an affair. In my world, she is a dowager who adores Napoleon and his best friend who she also considers a nephew. When I read about young Amy, my first thought was "What a brilliant idea!" not "That's not right, Amy's an old lady!"

Is there a way for the community to see the monthly stats for section 7? I would like that.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

It's fine if you don't like something I wrote, but be constructive and allow me to discuss it with you if I want.

And I've had really good discussions several times with people who had critical comments to make. I say this as fact, not boast - I very rarely get criticism. This is not because my stuff doesn't merit it - it's probably more because people are generally not all that critical of fanfic (unlike hags like me). But when I do get critical comment, I LOVE it, because it makes me think, and I love thinking and talking about the craft. Why do we choose this phrasing, not that? Why this POV, not that? Why this word, not that? I find it fascinating, and I love to ask a reader "What made you think that?" Or "why were you confused at this point?"

One time only I got a thoughtful critical comment on Skyhawke and was really bummed that I couldn't contact the person because I would have loved to talk it out with them.

But I think you and I are in the minority in that regard, alynwa.

[leethet.livejournal.com]

being told that my view of the MFU world in incorrect.

I've seen this in all the fandoms I'm in (only a few). There are always people who have a set view of canon and "reasons" they're right. I see many interpretations of MFU that I wouldn't think of and don't especially care for. That doesn't make them wrong or stupid or bad or anything else. Some of our best writers, I think, have visions about UNCLE that I don't care for at all - but they're good enough that I buy what they're selling for the length of the story.

I'm not an AU fan (Illya as an astronaut from the 50s, the guys as medieval peddlers, etc.) but that just means I skip those stories - it doesn't mean I think they shouldn't exist.

People can be oddly possessive in fandom, can't they?

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Hey Adrienne, if you pull up statistics under the right side profile drop down, then switch to section7mfu for user, you can look at the stats. I pay for it periodically but this one is about to run out... soon. Moderators have access.

[meneleth.livejournal.com]

When I read a story I will usually at least say "Thank you for sharing it with us", and add other comments if I have any.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

I am sure that acknowledgment is always appreciated.