working on timelines...

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Some of you may have paid attention to a recent trend in my stories that have to do with validating the Return Movie, that most vilified of MFU non-episode yet solidly canon film in which we have Messrs. Solo and Kuryakin no longer with UNCLE but out having a life elsewhere.


I'm also delving into pre-New York life, particularly Illya's, in which there must be a reasonable timeline established for his remarkable assortment of degrees, accomplishments and general Illya-ness.
The other night I watched the Gazebo in the Maze Affair, in which Napoleon states that he and Illya encountered Emory Partridge seven years prior.  Now, the episode was shown in the spring of '65, so I'm going to go with that, which means they would have been in South America routing Emory sometime in 1958.  
Illya graduated Survival School in '56, correct?  He would have already had his Bachelor's from the UG in the Ukraine by then, and before heading off to South America he should have finished the Master's at the Sorbonne.  He would then, after ruining the Partridge's party, have needed to head straight for London and start on his doctorate at Cambridge while working, we have all surmised, for Harry Beldon.  Now, I'm not sure how long it takes someone to gain a PhD in Quantum Mechanics from Cambridge, but I'm thinking he's going to just make it to New York in time to film the pilot in 1963... tongue in cheek here.
Does that track with people here, or am I missing something?  Those writers in Season 3 should have checked on what happened in Seasons 1&2 before they started handing out doctorate degrees to a man on such a tight schedule.  No wonder Illya doesn't show a lot of interest in women, he's probably still pooped from all of that academic overload.

''Can I just rest now?''

Comments

[carabele.livejournal.com]

With trying to timeline anything in MFU, you have to just go with what little was given and then create a timeline that works for your own MFU fiction universe.

The series' writers were freelance and paid little attention to logical continuance of what other writers had previously done. (And that PhD given Illya in Season 3 was really ridiculous anyway considering not only timeline, but the fact that in Season 2 in VIRTUE he was shown as not even knowing how to talk to scientists in a "scientific" way. And then again in Season 4, in MAZE he makes a comment about it being valuable to have a physicist as a fellow captive with regard to Fabray. So obviously he didn't consider himelf such.) So honestly go with what works for you. As long as there are no glaring time-goofs, it's really hard to question whether this or that is a year or so off to one side or the other.

Also remember, in GAZEBO IN THE MAZE, though Illya is mentioned by Solo as having been part of the original Partridge mission, Illya himself does not recognize Partridge during that initial bus setup at the start of the episode. So, as I've mentioned before, it is quite possible Illya played a very minor role in that mission, perhaps in some sort of technical capacity. And more than likely he was working under Beldon, not Waverly, at that time. If the mission was big enough, no reason agents from several different U.N.C.L.E. offices might not have been working in tandem on it. Thus, though Solo was working out of New York, Illya didn't have to be in order to be involved in the same mission. (And Partridge was a Brit, so the initial investigation regarding him and his antics in South America could very well have been initiated in U.N.C.L.E.'s London office.)

And sorry, just have to say this, the RETURN movie to me is no more canon than the silly ACE novels. It, like the novels, was done strictly with commercialism in mind. There was no real effort to make either conform to the setup of the original series. With the movie, CBS (not even the same network as the original series) was trying to capture "lightning in a bottle" for a second time. It didn't work (basically because they didn't get it even halfway right), so they moved on and the movie has blessedly been mostly forgotten.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

I did notice that Illya failed to recognize Partridge, whereas Napoleon knew him immediately, and vice versa. Interesting then that Illya was the first target in Emory's little plan of retribution. Is it only because he was Solo's partner, I wonder?
Oh, the challenge of making believers out of those who scoff at the Return Movie. It is now a quest of mine, and once directed I am unlikely to falter. Like those who climb to the highest peaks, I shall do it simply because it is there to conquer. ;)

[carabele.livejournal.com]

I would say that targetting of Illya by Partridge was indeed strictly because he was Napoleon's current partner. We are given that impression by the storyline, as Partridge wanted to get Solo to "come to him" and grabbing Illya was the easiest way to attain that goal. Remember, GAZEBO IN THE MAZE is Season 1, and Napoleon was definitely the main focus in that season.

Sorry though, hon, you will never make me a believer of the RETURN movie. I loathe, hate and abominate that piece of cheap swill more than any even of the worst Season 3 episodes. Yes, even GORILLA. [chuckle]

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

It's all right, I'm not in the convincing business ;)

[carabele.livejournal.com]

On a different subject, wendiez shared the cover art you created for her manuscript. Really excellent work. Has a bit of an Illya vibe, huh? [chuckle]

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you. Yes, it's getting exciting. And yes, the sketch I originally showed her was one that had Illya as an inspiration. Not that the man actually looks like my image of him, however. In all honesty, I think the reason they cut all of his shirtless scenes out of Around the World was because he was too skinny next to the other actors. Shhh.. don't tell anyone I said that. ;)

[avery11.livejournal.com]

In MAZE, when Napoleon says that "we" encountered Partridge seven years earlier in South America, perhaps the "we" he refers to is UNCLE, not himself and Illya. Clearly, Ilya has never seen the man before. Although he probably should have recognized him from file photos of prominent THRUSHIES.

There are always going to be holes that can't be filled, both here and, as the Beatles claim, in the Albert Hall. Good luck trying, though.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's a possibility isn't it, that Illya wasn't event there... hmmm...
Filling holes is the work of those of us who can't let go of the bone we've picked up. I used to play tennis quite a lot, and it took me a while to give up wood rackets. I believe it finally happened after I nearly knocked myself out in a follow through motion that completely missed the ball, but on making contact with my forehead caused me to see stars. Wood was formidable.
I may fall into a hole eventually, but I shall always try to make them line up :D

[eilidhsd.livejournal.com]

Distance learning?

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

That's a novel idea... almost a pun, if we weren't talking short stories :D

[rosywonder.livejournal.com]

I am with Carabele on practically everything she says including the absurd 'Return' film. I've always adopted the 'make it feel right' method, try to get the canon thing as right as you can, but don't tie yourself in knots over it. As she says, the MFU series writers obviously didn't.

When I started writing, I worked out a time line/back story that worked for me, making Illya a couple of years younger, and giving him chance to complete his doctorate (av time 3 years) in the peace of the Cambridgeshire fens without anyone, including UNCLE breathing down his neck. Despite the series, he is a proper academic in my stories!

As to the 'return' thing, I did use one of its more absurd ideas (Illya as a fashion designer) and re-work it somewhat in my third long story. Well, you'll have to read it to see what I did . . . .

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

It's funny how we see the man in many different lights. I'm more of a creative, and not only did I not have any interest in math or science, I resented them like crazy for getting more hours credited for the time they spent in class and labs than us poor fine arts people.
I have no difficulty seeing him in my world, and welcome him with open (ahemmm...) arms.

[reapermum.livejournal.com]

I resented them like crazy for getting more hours credited for the time they spent in class and labs

Whereas us poor scientists resented the free time the arts side had. The scientists were the only people who made it to breakfast on a regular basis as we had 9am lectures every day, followed by six hour labs on three days. We fitted in more lectures on the other two days.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

We were all over worked, I'm sure. I had a lab (don't roll you eyes at the idea of an art lab, they exist) five days a week and received one hour credit. Science majors had the same amount of time and an hour for every actual hour. An Associates degree (two years) in Fine Arts or Music took three years unless you took more classes than was reasonable to expect. But I beat the system haha! I quite. One does not need an art degree in order to paint, happily. It might help you to get a job, but hey... details.

[reapermum.livejournal.com]

five days a week and received one hour credit.

No, that's not fair. If you were required to be there then you should get the credit for turning up and working.

And I'm sure there were people doing practical stuff that was a lab equivalent, it's just that I hung out with theologians and linguists who only had to read books (and then only enough to get by).

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Pre-computer... hand lettering. Do I need to say more?

[reapermum.livejournal.com]

I was early computer, I never did get the hang of programming with punched cards.

Art v Science

[rosywonder.livejournal.com]

Oh I am not scientific either, although I really enjoy the maths and science I teach little children now! And I do think that Illya is very creative, which is why he is made to be so musical and linguistic in my stories. But as to being a fashion designer, well I just don't see it. I always think he looks like (and comes across as) someone for whom clothes are something you put on, not something you really get interested in. I've given him a lover in my stories that tries her hardest to dress him up (oh the thought) but even she struggles. Personally speaking, I love clothes and adore shopping, but Illya? the rag trade? mm. You'll have to make time to read the story (am wickedly self-publicising now) and then see if my solution was not creative and imaginative!

Re: Art v Science

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

I've started Font of Life; is it in there? I'm sure your telling of it is masterful, even if your world is not the one I always envision. That's the beauty of it, so many variables.
I think Illya dressed well enough, he has some sharp looking suits. Obviously the original characterization of Illya was rather a snappy dresser if we are to judge him by that opening tan ensemble that he sports in Solo.
Anyway, I won't budge off this! I like Illya knowing about weft and warp and using words like auburgine and chantilly. Mmmmm....

Re: Art v Science

[rosywonder.livejournal.com]

And good on you! I would love that sort of Illya, we could spend hours shopping together comparing textures . .!

Sorry to be pushing these stories! The answer is to be found in the story 'double or die' which follows 'Font of Life'. You are very kind to even consider ploughing through!

Re: Art v Science

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Optimally I would like to print it, but I'm low on ink ;)

Re: Art v Science

[rosywonder.livejournal.com]

And it's very long! Perhaps I should send you the ink!

Re: Art v Science

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Perhaps we need our own Zine. There is something to be said for sitting down with reading material in hand.

Re: Art v Science

[rosywonder.livejournal.com]

You're not the first person to say that. I still like the rustle of the page myself.

Re: Art v Science

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Nothing will replace books in my affections. When George Harrison published his 'autobiography', which isn't really but at least he wrote something, he let Genesis do it up royal in leather with the photos, etc... pricey but wow! That would be fun, wouldn't it, to do something like that with original artwork and so much self-gratuitous extravagance.
I can think of a hundred ways to not make money :D No wonder I'm unemployed.

Re: Art v Science

[rosywonder.livejournal.com]

Your idea sounds absolutely beautiful and far too good for the stuff I churn out, but it would be nice to think you had something like that as a reward for all the blood sweat and toil that I am sure you and I put into these writing things. Sadly, I can't draw for toffee but you are more multi-talented!

I'm sad that work is still elusive - I've had some good weeks at school lately so am clinging on there, wanting my last couple of years to be good ones.

[reapermum.livejournal.com]

My personal time line for Illya has him taking a Maths degree in the USSR at ~age 16-18 (maths is notorious for young students, google Ruth Lawrence), he can then do National Service in the navy 18-20, Masters at the Sorbonne after that (another couple of years). Finally starts his PhD at Cambridge 23/24 and goes to Survival School as a break in his PhD. He then does a bit of work under Beldon, working out of Cambridge while he completes his degree, before going to NY at ~27.

With a maths and theoretical physics background he does not do lab work, especially chemistry.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's some major accomplishments, I'm impressed.

[mrua7.livejournal.com]

I agree with adapting your own timeline. I had Illya completing all his education, University of Ukraine, Sorbonne and Cambridge before coming to UNCLE. (as well as doing his mandatory military service in the Navy. In my stories he was a Soviet operative while completing his studies and as he was already a trained agent I had him under Harry Beldon's tutelage for several years. He attended Survival School prior to his transfer to NY ( the big leagues) This all under Waverly's direction.

I ignore the inconsistencies regarding his scientific abilities on the show. In the reunion movie as I recall, David McCallum suggested the role reversal, he being the women's clothing designer instead of being the owner of the computer company. He wanted to shake things up a bit. And it did you fans I suppose as it really didn't make sense for their characters to go in the directions they did. If it were the reverse, it would have made more sense, and possibly made the movie better for the fans. oh well, it is what it is and I admire your taking it on, but as I said, developing your own time-line would be more logical in that illogical and inconsistent world that the MFU writers gave us.

The stories you've written are great and are helping make the "reunion scenario" more palatable, so keep up the good work.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

I believe you're correct in that DMc suggested the switch up in the story, for which I am grateful. I'm afraid writing about a computer business would be an impossibility for me :D
Perhaps my willingness to accept this 'designer' thing is that I've never seen him as particularly brainy/scientific in the stories. He's knowledgeable about many things, and curious; he has mechanical abilities that include car mechanics, and he seems to like comic books.
I think he can do anything brilliantly, so much is my confidence in Mr. Kuryakin. So, dress designer... absolutely.
Anyway, it's where I am and all of these timeline comments are very helpful. I just wonder if any of the original writers are still around and if they ever, you know, read our stuff ;)

[mrua7.livejournal.com]

I agree with you, Illya becoming a clothing designer is intriguing and am glad you're pursuing it. The line of thinking you're taking in your stories makes the storyline even more palatable.

I think the writers, if any are still around are probably like McCallum and Vaughn thinking that it was all over 44 years ago and don't really have much specific episode related memories. I'm sure it's and even more vague recollection for a script writer, considering how much they're probably written over the years.

We the fans latch onto things in great detail, so much so that I'm sure McCallum and Vaughn are aware of and probably shake their heads in amazement... as we probably have better recall than they do.

[laurose8.livejournal.com]

Just want to say I'm looking forward to reading more of your excellent stories set in that pro-Return timeline.

(Reapermum's suggestion looks admirable. Anyway, it looks as if it would help if he was one of those people who get by with little sleep!)

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I am trying to make it interesting and believable. Hey, I believe it ;)
For me, I never see any real evidence that Illya is a science geek. He's intelligent and curious, knowledgeable to be sure, but I've never actually seen him reading a science journal or working in the labs in an episode.
It's wonderful to have literary license to write these characters in anyway that pleases us, and I like myself a Russian artistic type. How is that not a good thing?

[laurose8.livejournal.com]

I love the Russian artistic type, too. Certainly the canon shows him both interested and competent in music.

After all, artists seem to have an interest in science at least as often as anyone else.

[rosywonder.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I apologise Glenna for not saying that your stories are lovely and I'm sure that Kuryakin is more than capable of holding his own with a pair of scissors and a bolt of cloth. In fact he can design me something any old time he pleases, as long as there's a fitting included . . .!!

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I appreciate it. Seriously, we all have our separate worlds that we create in order to keep these characters alive and involved with us. Fittings could be such an interesting experience...

[rosywonder.livejournal.com]

Mmm. Just think hands . . big hands.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Here's the dream scenario...
He put his hands around her waist, fingertips meeting as they enclosed her, drawing the willing woman into ...
Well, you go and do with it what comes to mind ;)

[rosywonder.livejournal.com]

For 'woman' substitute 'Glenna' or 'Rosy' depending on what time of day it is. He will be able to stride the time differences of course.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... we've already established the man can go hours without sleep, so... yes, different time zones should not be a problem.

[rosywonder.livejournal.com]

He's looking a bit worried about it in your icon (!) We'll maybe give him a rest after we've got a nice dress each out of him.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, by all means. The dress is what we're after ;)