Round Table - The Friendship

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

This post is also on Dreamwidth, and considering the potential comments on this subject I think we would do well to hold our conversation over there.  You can follow this link: DWS7

Last week we had a rousing conversation concerning Illya and his women, and his attitude towards them.  Out of that came a comment from vmccooley that had a promise of more comments as we explore what each of us perceives as the depth of the relationship between Solo and Kuryakin.
For the sake of a free exchange, I think we must make this forum truly open; that is to say, whatever your viewpoint on this it is welcome as part of the conversation.  I realize the fans of MFU range from those who hold to the series' presentation of the men as purely professional tinged with a solid friendship, while others have taken it to a romantic relationship.  This is the day to tell us how you got there and why it holds your imagination and attention as a writer and/or reader.
So, what do you think? Just what are the depths of devotion between Napoleon and Illya?

Comments

[fiorenza-a.livejournal.com]

I haven't sorted out DW yet.

But this is a brilliant discussion topic - hope you guys enjoy.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

I think if you follow the link you'll be fine to join in.

[alynwa.livejournal.com]

I just posted in DW. Will it automatically crosspost here?

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

No, crossposting only applies to personal journals.

[vmccooley.livejournal.com]

Though I tend to see them through slash goggles, as I said in the previous post it's not necessarily in a sexual way. In the nature of spy shows - and "buddy" shows in general - women come and go, but the partnership remains the bedrock.

I know a lot of fans don't consider the return movie as "canon" - I'm 50/50 about it myself - but one thing about it felt true to me: neither man had married or maintained a lasting relationship. Despite the ridiculous reunion movie trope about "breaking partners up so we can have a dramatic reunion," they fell back into rhythm with ease.

"I will if you will" is a great line to me. They don't even need to say the words; they know each other so well. In the end, they decide to remain together. Whether friends or lovers, it is still their bedrock.

I'm not on Dreamwidth and they wouldn't let me post this anonymously, so I posted it here.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

I hope you'll consider DW, just for the sake of the 'what if' nature of LJ. I felt like this conversation might get too much attention since it is inclusive of the slash genre. As it is I was informed we have one of the top 25 entries today.
I think the buddy/partner scenario is the bedrock of so much great literature. Alexander Dumas made it classic with The Three Muskateers, perhaps the greatest buddy adventure of all time.
I personally accept the Return Movie, if for no other reason that the actors involved did it. I think Illya as the designer was the right way to go, and certainly he played that part on more than one occasion in the original series. Illya was the creative, the musician, the man most likely to go against the grain when he decided UNCLE wasn't going to rule his life. But that's for the stories, and I agree with you that in the second half of their lives they are much the same as in the first half. Single, still game for the adventure as long as it includes the other guy.

[vmccooley.livejournal.com]

Thanks, I'll look into it.

I've watched a number of reunion movies - I Spy Returns, Wild Wild West Revisited - and like MFU, there are pros and cons. Despite the flaws, I'm glad we have it.

I think the main thing is that they love each other, however one sees the nature of it.

[fiorenza-a.livejournal.com]

Slash isn't verboten - but there is an indication in the T&C's that it should be 'adult'. The approach seems to come from the same mindset that passed the reviled and heinous 'clause 28 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28)' into UK law. I.E. that 'gayness' corrupts the youth - like it was catching (and by implication, presumably a disease).

Since I can't do much about this mindset, I have decided to mark anything that might elicit any suggestion of romance, whether gay or otherwise, as adult. The Russians upped the rating on the live action Beauty and the Beast because of its gay content - but they did release the film.

So my thinking is, if Illya and Napoleon holding hands is adult, then so is Illya and Gaby (or, for that matter, Belle and the Beast) holding hands.

I couldn't do much about 'clause 28', but I boycott Russian vodka.

[the-wretching.livejournal.com]

Love The Three Musketeers. Good call.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

The Three Muskateers is one of my all time favorites, the book and the Richard Lester film from the 70's. It is the best of all versions, true to the book and witty in the telling.

[fiorenza-a.livejournal.com]

I tried to reply to this earlier, but Lj ate my post!

Anyhow, the gist of what I tried to say was that I consider all non-canon slash as AU. I don't have much of a problem with either the 'Reunion' or 2015 movie, but I thought the 80's version of U.N.C.L.E. H.Q looked 'naff' - there really is no translation which really captures it's meaning, but in this context, 'cheap/low-rent' goes some way towards it - but Napoleon as art thief really irked me.

I know they usually use 'art' or 'jewel thief' to make someone sound dangerous without being sleazy, as drugs might do, but in this instance, art is sleazy. Worse than sleazy - after the war, a lot of private collections held Nazi looted art. It wasn't a clean market, it was tainted by the worst atrocities humankind has perpetrated.

So, even if you accept Napoleon as dishonest (and I don't), how can you accept him as decent? In my head canon, the only solution is to believe that he was actually working for an anonymous organisation to liberate and return the looted art - and that, at some point, he will be vindicated.

As for the actual question :0) I see the guys as friends in the show, brothers in arms who care deeply for each other - best mates who can tease and best each other without acrimony because they trust each other implicitly and love each other unconditionally. We don't know why Napoleon left U.N.C.L.E. - perhaps simply that he hit forty and couldn't bear to watch Illya still in the field without him. (I know Spikes came up with an imaginative take on the reasons for her Foothills series.) But it's clear at the beginning of the movie that he thinks he's left Illya cocooned in the protection of U.N.CL.E.

But I'm happy to read them as slash (to be fair, I've written them as slash, so it would be a bit rich to object!).

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

I didn't like the back story on Napoleon for the big movie. It seemed unnecessary to cast him with that kind of 'edginess', which is a sad testament to how heroes are built these days. I guess being a Korean war vet wasn't good enough for the director.
As for Illya having anger management issues, that was a bad call IMO. I like the movie okay, all things considered, but those elements were way off for me.

[fiorenza-a.livejournal.com]

I had less problem with Illya's 'episodes' because a lot of fic has realised that Illya may have grown up with a traumatic backstory. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt and hoping that any next film (and there seems to be a bit more hope of that now (http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/movies/the-man-from-uncle/48777/the-man-from-uncle-2-being-wrtitten)) would provide a fan friendly explanation. Plus - I loved Illya and Gaby!

But yeah, the Korean war! It's not a war demonised like Vietnam, most people don't see it in anywhere near the same terms - just look at the films - Vietnam, Born on the Fourth of July (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096969/) - Korea, Love is a Many-Splendored Thing (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048316/). Napoleon could have been William Holden - edgy, but ultimately decent - if that's the way they wanted to go.

I just got wind of something else Lj is doing - so I'm concentrating in taking the tarpaulin off my DW account at the mo. I've asked for permission to signal boost, if the original poster doesn't want to do it - so something should appear in the canteen one way or another - and just when I was toying with the idea of setting up a comm of my own...

[livejournal.livejournal.com]

Hello! Your entry got to top-25 of the most popular entries in LiveJournal!
Learn more about LiveJournal Ratings in FAQ (https://www.dreamwidth.org/support/faqbrowse?faqid=303).

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

The comments from our DW site...

1.
ALYNWA
In my head, Napoleon and Illya over the course of their partnership have become very devoted to each other because Napoleon insisted from the beginning that he and Illya keep no secrets from each other, about anything; that they share what they are feeling and to trust that the other one is a non - judgmental safe place to reveal deepest darkest secrets. I write gen mostly with the occasional slashy tale mixed in, but I can certainly appreciate the stories that portray them as devoted lovers. If anyone is familiar with the TV show Boston Legal, the friendship of Alan Shore and Denny Crane is similar to how I see Napoleon and Illya: Extremely close to the exclusion of others, much closer than typical male friends seem to be, not afraid to hug and say I love you.

2. JANTOJONES
Personally, I prefer to see them as extremely close friends, who love each other like brothers, but I don't take any issue with anyone seeing them as lovers. I tend not read slash simply because I don't see them as lovers, (anyone who has read any of my Torchwood stuff will know I have no problems with same sex relationships). However, I can understand, and appreciate, how others see their relationship as more than just friends. There are plenty of looks and touches which can easily be read in different ways.

3. LILIDELAFIELD
I don't read or write slash myself, and I never will. I have no issue with those who feel differently. I view them as close friends, the type of friendship forged in the flames of trials and torture, who have learned to trust each other implicitly. I also like to think that they are not blind or immune to each other's bad points either, and sometimes become very annoyed at each other...for example, my Napoleon gets frequently annoyed with Illya's tendency to isolate himself, Illya with Napoleon's dalliances with women. I personally see them as good friends, but who don't spend every second together away from work.

4. LAUROSE8
Just to say my take for canon (nothing against the slash fanon) is much at the first end of your spectrum. With the addendum that an early critic called it a brotherly relationship, and there is an element of you can choose your friends but with Waverly you can't as much choose your partner.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

5. LEETHET
I write slash and gen, and have no issues switching between. The key for me has always been their trust in one another. I would agree with Lila, above, that I'm sure they irk each other, get on each other's nerves, and have separate interests - that may just be because I think that bit of separation is healthy in general and I view their relationship as healthy. But I think of them as brothers, with a bond forged in (or under?) fire, whether there's a sexual element to the story or not.

6. GLENMERED/glennagirl
I've always seen them from the perspective I held as a 10 year old, that of best buddies who work together in a tough job. Now as a writer I tend to see the depth of that friendship, the devotion required of two men whose lives often hang in the balance. I've used the biblical analogy of David and Jonathan, about whom it is written that their souls were 'knit together'. I have friends with whom I share that kind of closeness, and it is deep and effortless; some friendships spring up not because they are cultivated, but because they are meant to be. At least I believe that.
Personally, I see the two of them chasing women with great glee far too often to think of them as anything but heterosexual. I wrote a few slash stories after a great deal of encouragement to do so. It never seemed authentic to me, and I've removed all of them for that reason.

7. MSK1024
Like Glenmered, I view Illya and Napoleon through the lens of my childhood self watching the show when it was first run. I don't easily buy in to a sexual relationship between IK and NS, but good writing persuades me. And a lot of stories make a really good case--Illya having an extremely guarded personal life, and Napoleon having what seems to be a casual, recreational approach to women.

I think we give the show and the relationship a lot more thought than the producers and writers did! Shows from that period were fairly lightweight emotionally. MFU does seem to have robust emotional underpinning, but I suspect that's due to two exceptionally fine actors.

My first online fandom was X-Files, and my take on Mulder and Scully was that they loved each other and were interested romantically in each other, but driving a lot of that was the fact that they were so unbelievably isolated from anyone else. Danger kept them from connecting with their families and friends, and made romance with anyone else far too risky. That would lend itself very easily to the MFU world. IK and NS are also isolated from anyone out of the organization. Humans have the need for intimacy--a hunger, really. Whether that relationship is sexual or strictly platonic, they would be drawn to each other out of a need.
Edited DATE: 2017-05-28 06:19 PM (LOCAL)

7a.GLENMERED
just imagine what the series would be like if it were done today. We'd have those layers of relationship, a continuing story line most likely, and so much more. I love the show as it is for what it is, but fan fiction has definitely improved on certain elements of what the writers couldn't delve into.

[the-wretching.livejournal.com]

Good discussion.
I'm commenting here because I haven't joined the comms over on DW yet and you wouldn't know my name and I have no MFU icons there.

For me, I will confess that when I discovered the show I was in a very unsatisfied and trapped kind of place. I latched on to their relationship like an obsession. I needed something like a crush --but safer-- something to excite me out of my slump, something to find ...hope?...in. I saw the slash in it almost immediately. Yes, I had longing-goggles on, but I do think their bantering and physical comfort with each other lead to it easily. I am happy to accept the position that they are brotherly. That much is true either way. But I do see something else there. A sexual tension. And it's one of the things that I like most about the show. It gives me a kind of comfort.

I also want to add an aside here: I despise the phrase "more than friends." Friendships are valuable. Romance is no more --and often less --lasting or valuable.
So, while I do willfully and joyously see our guys as lovers or would-be lovers, I do not find either sort of relationship to be "better" in general. I only feel that the tension is there.

But it's personal. I see it clear as day, but I respect all my cousins who have a different perspective. We all see what resonates with us. There's nothing wrong with any of it.

[vmccooley.livejournal.com]

Thank you for sharing your story. I've had shows hit me just when and where I needed them most.

I can see Napoleon and Illya as brothers or lovers. Either way, it's the most important relationship for them both.

[glennagirl.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you joined in, and hopeful that you'll do the DW thing soon. With all of the weirdness going on with LJ it's looking inevitable to be on the other site primarily at some point.
As for point of view, it absolutely comes differently to each of us. I think many people have not ever experienced watching men who have deep and intimate relationships, and yet not gay. Our view of Solo and Kuryakin is that is present, and remains a constant for them as a backdrop to what we actually see on screen. I'm not sure there were comparable duos onscreen previous to the UNCLE men, and certainly the changes that occurred during the 60's made room for more expressiveness.
In any event, I'm glad we have our guys.

[the-wretching.livejournal.com]

You make a good point about culture and perspective. I imagine that especially for cousins who watched the show in its original run, and especially those that were children at the time, homosexuality, or intimations thereof, would have been virtually invisible.

I came to it as a gen-X-er, just a little while after Brokeback Mountain got a lot of people angry and then the country got over itself and got over their outrage.

I also came to it as a bisexual who has had exclusively heterosexual relationships, but who has had many flirtations and longings for women. So there is that something right there I guess. That something that resonates. Part of why I like seeing them as attracted to each other is because it is unspoken and a bit forbidden.

My vision is as personal as it is cultural. Probably true for all of us.

And I'm also thinking now about male friendships, and when exactly the homophobia came into the culture with the force it had when I was growing up. Whatever sort of companionship we see between them, I think that perhaps their jobs--their identities as spies and enforcement agents, gave them liberty to not feel the need to "defend their masculinity" and allowed them to express their affection for one another with more eye contact and teasing and close physical contact than many men would feel allowed.